Unlock the secrets to transforming early childhood education by focusing on the actions — not just the topics — that captivate young minds. Join me as I sit down with Heather Jackson, author of “Actions of Play,” to explore how play schemas can revolutionize the way we approach learning. Discover how understanding the verbs that inspire children can lead to rich, inquiry-based projects that resonate with their natural curiosities. From the mesmerizing roll of a fire truck’s wheel to the gentle crawl of a ladybug, we dissect the underpinnings of play that drive meaningful and complex learning experiences.
As the conversation unfolds, we explore the power of curiosity and introspection in education. Heather shares her insights on how “slow pedagogy” and observation can capture the essence of play, leading to transformative, magical educational experiences. We also explore the enchanting story of “Rainbow City”—a unique project inspired by a child’s drawing that became a medium for creativity and emotional expression. This episode invites educators to embrace wonder and magical thinking, ultimately enriching both teaching and learning for educators and students alike.
You can now also find Not Just Cute: The Podcast on Spotify and Amazon Music!
Notes from the Show:
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Heather’s Book: Actions of Play: Weaving Play Schemas into Inquiry-Based Learning and Project Work
Check out Heather’s school: The Sunflower School
Follow the Sunflower School on Instagram
Catch up with my first episode with Heather: Episode 38 – Verbs as Themes
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Transcript
This transcript was created with Podium.
Highlights:
(04:43) – Exploring Children’s Learning Through Nature
(11:27) – Valuing Experiences Over Products
(12:31) – Interests vs Intentions in Education
(18:28) – Understanding Play Schemas for Positive Learning
(21:18) – Understanding Play Schemas in Education
(27:49) – Promoting Curiosity Through Play Proposals
(29:29) – Setting Educator Intentions for the Year
(35:28) – Fostering Magical Thinking in Early Education
(43:03) – Vignette: Building Rainbow City
Transcript:
00:03 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
Hi, I’m Amanda Morgan, and this is Not Just Cute the podcast where we discuss all kinds of topics to help bridge the gap that exists between what we know and what we do in early childhood education. We’re starting conversations with academics, authors, decision makers, educators and parents so that together, we can improve the quality of early childhood education while at the same time, protecting and respecting the childhood experience. Today, I’m joined by Heather Jackson, author of Actions of Play, weaving Play Schemas into Inquiry-Based Learning and Project Work. She’s here to help us see play with fresh eyes and discover how to use it as a powerful tool for inquiry. You can find this episode’s show notes, which are always full of links, tidbits and resources, at notjustcutecom. Forward slash podcast. Forward slash, episode 80.
01:02
Before we jump in, a quick reminder that you can share the importance of play through the why we Play parent letters. You can check them out and grab a free sample letter by going to notjustcutecom forward slash whyweplay. As I’ve said over and over, people don’t value what they don’t understand, so let’s do our best to help others understand and value play. The why we Play letters were written to help you do just that. Grab your free sample letter today at notjustcutecom forward slash whyweplay. If you want to understand fascinating play behaviors and turn them into deeper learning opportunities, this episode is for you. Let’s jump in, heather. Thank you so much for coming back on the podcast. I’m so excited to talk with you about this new exciting book that you’re putting out into the world.
01:58 – Heather Jackson (Guest)
Thank you. I’m happy to be here especially. I’ve already had a great podcast experience a few years ago with you and talking about sort of the principles of my book, and now it’s actually in print. It’s amazing, amazing.
02:13 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
I love that. I love seeing that full circle journey, journey. So for those that maybe haven’t listened to that episode yet and I’ll make sure to link it in the show notes so people can. But do you want to just catch us up a little bit? It takes us back to the middle of COVID. Right, we sat down and talked about the concept of verbs as projects and themes rather than nouns, which is what we tend to do. So kind of meet us there and catch us up to where you are now.
02:38 – Heather Jackson (Guest)
So this concept happened for me years ago, like 2015. And I illustrated in the book to the one of the opening chapters talks about where I started thinking about this deeply, about our work. Instead of using nouns such as the firefighter or I don’t know I’m some off topic that I remember doing back in the 80s the circus and instead of using those nouns as your lead for project work or weekly themes or monthly themes, whatever you’re doing, it’s to look at the verb. Why are children fascinated with firefighters, right? What is it about the firefighter that’s fascinating, right? And lots of times it’s the truck, it’s the movement of that truck. So then could we not think about the what is the verb? And so when I think about the verb, it’s that movement, right, it’s that movement. Children are fascinated by movement. Children are fascinated by balls, rolling cars, and it’s not necessarily the car, but the car has wheels. That moves and that’s what the children are fascinated with. And it’s that play schema of trajectory that children are fascinated with. How does something move without me carrying it somewhere, right? And so I always look at when I’m talking with my educators and we try to dig down deep to create that complex project. That’s what you want. You don’t want that simplistic, just surface level work. It’s not fulfilling for yourself and it really doesn’t give the children what they’re striving for and what they’re trying to figure out in our world, because, ultimately, children are trying to make meaning of our world and it’s our job to help them. And so by trying to figure out the verb of the noun that we’re looking at, I think that you can create richer projects.
04:43
I’ll just give you a little example of a ladybug. I think I talk about this in the first pocket and I also talk about it in my book, but the ladybug is crawling all over our playgrounds right now, as spring is coming right, and so children, especially little ones that are two and two or three, they’re running around after these ladybugs. They can actually catch some of these ladybugs, they crawling on them. And is it really? What we traditionally would have done would be like, oh, let’s do a project on ladybugs. The children love the ladybugs, they’re so interested in them. But is it really it if we step back for a second instead of jumping into that traditional? Is it really the ladybug, or is it the movement of that little wee creature? And what could actually happen with that ladybug.
05:33
And Loris Malaguzzi, in one of his books, talks about a project that happened on the playground at one of their schools in Reggio, and he talked about the bugs crawling all over the playground and one of the teachers, like they were just crazy. All over the playground and the children were watching them and the teacher said you know what are they doing, what are they trying to do? And one of the children said I think they’re lost. And that turned into mapping. Because when you’re lost, what do you need? You need a map.
06:07
Today kids talk about their gps, mom’s, you know car. You just ask oh, we want to go to mcdonald’s, uh, down the street. And so you get a map. But in those, you know, years ago, it was maps that we were looking at. So on the playground they built a city for the ladybug, they built maps, they drew maps for the ladybugs, they drew signs, stop signs and lights, and they, it all of a sudden became bigger than that ladybug that you would do paint on a paper plate and put glue, black dots on. And that’s simplistic and children deserve to have something deeper and more meaningful to participate in. So that’s where I go to in the verb. I’m always looking for that deeper meaning in our project.
06:54 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
And it becomes more intentional and meaningful. It gets past just the cute you know, the Pinterest version, the universal. Everyone does ladybugs this way versus what do you find interesting about that thing? So, going back to like firefighters, I’m curious is it possible if I’m looking at children who are fascinated with the firefighters and I’m thinking why is this fascinating to them? Rather than just jumping at level one, firefighters cool, let’s find all the cute firefighter activities. If I look at, why are they fascinated? You mentioned movement, which I think is a common thing. Could it also be for another group of children? Could it be that they’re fascinated with the concept of rescue?
07:31
Right, right and that could be a different thing for different children.
07:35 – Heather Jackson (Guest)
There is no right or wrong. There is no right or wrong, but it is looking at the deeper meaning, right. So yes, it could, and I give an example that you know you do community helpers for the week right.
07:47
And what is at the base of that? What is the verb of the community? Helpers? And it is rescuing, it’s caring, right. So now caring becomes a bigger project, because what are all the things in our life that are caring for us, even coming down to the garbage guy that picks up our garbage? He is taking our garbage away. He is part of that caring that that we all need as humans to create our life together, right?
08:17
So then what can we do as a two year old and a three year old to care for other things, right? And so then it becomes very creative and like just the you know simple thing as putting up a painting, a picture, and putting it up on the walk that you’re going to, that it maybe makes somebody happy that they see your beautiful sunshine, or drawing of yourself. Right’s caring, right. So then it doesn’t become like a firefighter does this and you know, the cook does this and it it takes that away and it all of a sudden becomes, I think, more rich for the educator and the children, and for the educator. You deserve to work on interesting projects, not okay? Last year we did apples. In September we got to bring out the apple stuff that is so stereotypical, but there’s so much more work in our world of early childhood that we can be doing and I think the verb and the noun can give you that work piece think the verb and the noun can give you that work piece.
09:29 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
It’s far more respectful of both partnerships to show that we’re really listening in this conversation, not just assuming that we already know what they’re interested in or what they’re wondering about. And it’s I love that that shift, just another layer of question of where’s the action word right, and I think that that also reminds us that this should be an active process, not a passive project process, but that the children have an active role in that and that we and it’s an active conversation between the two of us. I should mention the book is called actions of play.
10:01 – Heather Jackson (Guest)
Yes, and that’s where it came to. It was like we had lots of discussions back and forth with my coauthor, lisa and I, and with the publisher, and so many different titles came across and then, all of a sudden, actions of play, and it’s like, yes, that’s what we’re looking for, that’s what we, as educators, need to be that detective and dig deep and say what is the action in this play? Right?
10:27 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
Rather than a than a snapshot. Right, again, I keep going back to the Pinterest or the social media version. Right, it’s just a static snapshot and we have to go past to see. I love the way you phrase that question. What are the actions of play? What do you not just what should this activity look like? What should the action, what will or what could the action of play be?
10:49 – Heather Jackson (Guest)
That’s right and I always come back to it doesn’t have to be a product, it can be an experience. You can. You know just, I think, in in our schools, in the Sunflower Schools, we are always looking. We’re not always looking for that product, you don’t always always looking for that product. You don’t always have to make a product, Whereas early childhood is very typical of we got to make a product, right, so with the firefighter piece, or even the ladybug, oh yeah, we got to make a ladybug and we got to cut out a fire and they can glue and stick on stuff on.
11:19
But that’s not learning, that’s not doing, that is really superficial. And again it comes back to that product. And just in the last few years I’ve just been really mindful about how much value parents and educators put on this product that the child now has made, and so then the value for that child is that. Now I’m important because I made this picture that I think we have to steer away from that. I think we have to get to a place where, yeah, it’s good that so we’re in a seniors living building, where we are in one of our schools and going down to see the seniors and doing music together with the seniors. That’s part of caring, that’s part of, you know, community helpers and all of that we can be, as two and three year olds have that power and I always think, how can we give children that power? But I also. It’s like that’s an experience, it’s not a product that we’ve just made right so we have to. I think we have to stay away from that and not do the whole product thing so much.
12:27 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
Yeah, it’s that experience that’s most important, it’s an important distinction. So in in the book you talk about the, the difference where you compare interests versus intentions, and I think it’s kind of aligned with what you’re saying here. Can you talk a little bit more about that, Interests versus intentions?
12:49 – Heather Jackson (Guest)
Um, you hear it’s a buzzword like what are the children’s interested in? What are they interested in, right, and when I really look at it, and just my own personal physical work every day, it’s not. They are. Interests are something that’s passive, something that if you look in the dictionary it defined as a passive, something that kind of fills your time. It’s not rich or really filled with potential, whereas an intention is.
13:20
You know, there’s books written, the intentional teacher, right, intentional is an important, interesting word and so why aren’t the interests of the children intentional, like they are trying to make meaning, like I always say, of their world? So they are intentionally doing this, this and this, and they’re playing this way because they’re trying to figure out, you know, how does that ball move fast and slow? How does the ramp affect how the ball moves? Right, they, even though they’re not verbalizing that, that’s going through their brain and it’s us as educators to be watching and recording those intentions about what they are trying to figure out in their world and the materials that we give them right, all the loose parts and the really rich, interesting materials that we’re giving them to play with in a different way than they do at home. Or, you know, if they go to the library like they have an opportunity to figure out things in a really interesting way with loose parts. But that’s what I feel intentions are. Is that really interesting work of young children?
14:31 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
It sounds like that is kind of the layer that helps you get to the action word, the verb that, instead of just looking at here is the noun that they’re interested in. What is the intention behind that, so that I can support that active piece rather than just the passive noun? But what are? What are the intentions? What is it that they’re doing? Not just passively watching, but what are they actually doing with that thing?
14:56 – Heather Jackson (Guest)
yes, and and we always get I always get that question. We do a lot of tours for other educators from around Ontario just looking to see what we’re doing, and they always ask well, if one child is doing something, then how does it become a project? And I said, if it’s interesting and important and worthy work, as I always talk about, then other children, it’s like contagious, right, if you’re, and now you’re offering different kinds, I’m just talking about the ball movement, right, it’s not the ball that children are interested in, it’s the movement of that ball. So if a ball is big, if a ball is small, if a ball is medium size, how does it fit on the ramp? So then that’s our job to get those big, small, medium balls so that we see this movement. Can a block move the way a ball does? And that, like there’s so many ways that you can throw in a curve ball for a little pun there, but a curve ball in the project work, by offering them different size ramps, can we make our own ramps? How do you make a ramp? Right, and then it becomes bigger than just the ball. The ball is the catalyst to that action piece and then it’s that interest.
16:11
They all are like two and a half three-year-olds. Like I know, we have one little guy every day. He’s got a little car in his pocket. Well, it’s the movement of that car that he’s fascinated with. Right, he’s going to start riding a two-wheeler with training wheels on it. His mom said for his birthday, for spring, and that again is the same thing. It’s that movement that he’s interested in. How can I go fast? How can I go slow? And those are all the things that we need, as educators, to be recording in our journals, to be posting as project work. How can you move fast? I think that’s a great way to start a project. How do you move fast, ask a three-year-old. How do you move fast? Right? So then it becomes big.
16:56 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
Yeah, similar to that question that you mentioned, your visitors ask. One thing I was wondering was what, if you’re looking at the intentions, you have children who are interested in the same thing the object but their intentions, the thing, the action that fascinates them, is different. So, for example, back to the firefighters, if you can see that some of them are fascinated by the movement of the truck and another child is fascinated by the care or the rescue, yeah, so what do you do with a group of children who are interested in the same noun but the verbs that intrigue them are a little bit different from each other? So how do you approach that?
17:35 – Heather Jackson (Guest)
So, in our classrooms you could have two and three projects happening at all at one time, right? And I think that would be a great comparative to have, and that you’re setting up activities for the child who is interested in the movement of that truck and the tires and all those things, and how do big tires move and little tires and all of that and then the other part would be the rescuing. So you’re setting up play proposals activities. So you’re setting up play proposals activities based on the rescuing and caring and the activities to do for that. So then you have a comparative which is a great documentation piece as to how you did that project with two interests and intentions from your children, right? So yeah, they both can go on at the same time. They have to, they absolutely have, yeah.
18:27 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
Yeah, and I love that. That could be, I think, an easy first step for someone who’s hearing this for the first time. They’re really used to the noun theme and this feels really uncomfortable. I think what you just described. If I’m coming from that point, that’s an easier way for me to say, okay, I’m going to keep my firefighter week, but now I’m going to look at my activities as verbs, so I’m going to watch for those verbs that I can bring in, and so it kind of becomes a um, kind of a subheading that they can take that first step and say, okay, let’s look at activities as activities that are active and find the verbs right, yes, and that’s, that is a, that is the function.
19:08 – Heather Jackson (Guest)
So, even if you did a theme, so you did ladybugs. You know, like I know, traditionally, like 25, 30 years ago, everything in our classroom would be about ladybugs, right? Well, who said that all the children are interested in those ladybugs, right, and the way that you’re presenting it, especially. And so this way, now you, yes, you could have two and three, four things going on at one time that were important, not not simplistic things, but really important work, and that you’ve been able to discover the verb in the noun, and so there is space we can hold space for everything that’s happening around that one thing and in our one school we are attached to a seniors living and so, unfortunately, they have fire trucks and ambulances come there a lot, and so our kids on our playgrounds see those fire trucks and ambulances all the time and they love when they see in the fire guys, they stop and they, you know, show them the trucks and it’s always beautiful, but and then that that interest is fleeting and it’s gone, like nobody’s ever done anything on fire trucks or fire, because it’s just a moment and then it’s gone. So I think you have to be flexible. You have to be open, you have to be watching, you don’t just jump forward.
20:38
One of the things that we’ve been working on this year is a slow pedagogy. So just slow down, step back. Nobody’s asking you to do this tomorrow, right? Yes, your children were excited about the fire truck that drove by, right? So then we slow down, we stop and say, okay, what is it that’s interesting them, and nobody’s asking you. And that’s how projects last for a long time is because we’re slowing down, so that the children can slow down and really investigate what it is that they’re most that the intentions of their play comes from. Where does it come from? Right? So it’s our job to slow down.
21:14 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
Yeah, that’s such an important reminder, such an important reminder. So your background is regio and I think we kind of have mentioned that before that this is still something that applies to whatever philosophy that you’re working from. There’s places where they all meet together in that patchwork philosophy background. So you talk about play schemas and that’s something that is particularly focused on in Reggio, but it’s something that I think other play-based educators will see in their own work, even if they’re not familiar with the term. So can you help us understand what play schemas are and how we use them in supporting play?
21:54 – Heather Jackson (Guest)
Right. So I’ll just tell you in our book we also do so I’ll just tell you in our book we also do. We’ve connected all the play schemas, all the verbs as nouns, to different curriculums, to the Montessori, to the frog curriculum. We’ve connected an emergent curriculum. So that’s very big right now is that emergent? And so the verb and the noun very easily fits into that emergent curriculum.
22:22
So with play schemas, children, it’s really interesting that work and we see it every single day. But until we’ve labeled it you don’t understand what it actually is. So play schemas are natural urges that children have that they want to do things over and over and over again. And so it’s that child that again wants to see the movement of the balls, movement of the cars, is fascinated when a car goes by or we have a big garbage truck that comes down the road and our toddlers, you know, they scream to the fence and are just so amazed at how big those tires are right and how noisy it is the big truck coming down. So that’s called a trajectory play schema. So those are children that are very fascinated with the whole wheels and movement and how things go, even flying, how things flying even fits into that whole play schema.
23:21
So there’s about eight or nine play schemas, but definitely eight that really show themselves every single day in our children’s play. Another one is enclosing how and it starts right up from infants and babies when they start doing peekaboo that they like something on their head or something on your head and you do peekaboo. So that’s the enclosing play schema and that one is very fascinating, even up until 18 months, two year olds love the whole peekaboo concept. But then it’s then building forts, and I remember as a child building forts right, I was probably 1011, building forts in our backyard. I loved building forts. I did too. Yeah, building forts in our backyard.
24:01 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
I loved building forts.
24:02 – Heather Jackson (Guest)
I did too, yeah and my brother and I, we, you know, from the couch cushions to the big sheets that or table cloths my mom would give us, we would build forts. And so today I love camping, and so that’s part of enclosing. So I’m still working on my enclosing play schema. And you know there’s certain things that you can’t help but keep doing. There’s also the transporting, whereas you have children just moving materials all over the playground or all over your classroom, and so it’s art. So there’s about eight of them and they’re all very relevant. Once you start reading about them, you see, oh my gosh, our children are doing that. Even the dumping of the toys is about trajectory. They are trying to figure out how these toys move, and so it’s our job to flip it and create positive play experiences, not be upset that, oh my gosh, that child just dumped all those thousand Lego on the floor. Right, that child’s trying to figure out. All educators have that sound in their brain of the all the Lego falling out onto the floor, and so it’s our job to flip it and figure out how can we turn that into a positive.
25:13
And years ago we had an educator. She attached a big plumbing tube pipe she had, and it had a little bit of an elbow in it, to the bottom of a play shelf, a toy shelf, and so she would put a basket underneath and so he, this one little guy, would dump. He would dump it down the tube and it would go right into the basket. The noise satisfied his sense of, you know, movement, the movement in the tube. It just was he, everything went down into the tube. And so now we’re giving him a positive way to dump the toys.
25:51
And that this was. And then balls were just so fascinating. When the educator brought out balls it was just like he thought it was like amazing that he’d figured all that out. So there’s lots of ways to flip it and we give you lots of examples in the books on how to help children to read. Because you can’t stop them, they’re going to keep doing it. I don’t know how many times I’ve tried to stop somebody from dumping toys until this thing, a method came out. Or dumping into a big box, even if you, you know, can’t get a hold of a plumbing tube. There’s always different ways, but it’s just being creative and thoughtful and intentional, right.
26:29 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
Yeah.
26:30 – Heather Jackson (Guest)
So, and especially in little, like toddlers and infants, they are working through their play schemas because, again, they’re trying to make meaning out of their world, and so there’s lots of ways of doing that with play schemas. Because, again, they’re trying to make meaning out of their world, and so there’s lots of ways of doing that with play schemas. So we give you a lot of examples and lots of books to read with children about these play schemas, about movement, about transporting, about enclosing you know, fort building. So we give you lots of really good examples to help you in your work.
27:02 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
Yeah, I love that perspective of recognizing what the schema is and taking that energy and using it for positive things rather than trying to stop it. I often use the metaphor that when you see you know water coming to flood, if you just tell it to stop, it’s not going to stop. But if you can dig a ditch that will guide it, then you just tell it to stop, it’s not going to stop. But if you can dig a ditch that will guide it, then you can get it to where it actually needs to go. And it’s the same kind of thing. There’s already this momentum for this type of play and if we’re just trying to stop it, we’re, it’s not going to work. So if we can guide it to where it’s going to be, useful or productive or safer or whatever it is that the concern is, we can guide that and still honor the schema, honor the fascination and the interests that they have, so that we can support that. It’s a beautiful way of looking at it.
27:50 – Heather Jackson (Guest)
Yes, definitely a positive way. It’s a positive spin on negative stuff that happens in a classroom right. Negative stuff that happens in a classroom right. There is negative stuff that happens and now it’s just flipping it and giving it a positive spin on it, which is good for us as educators, right yeah.
28:07 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
And in all of these approaches you have to do a lot of introspection, a lot of reflection, a lot of careful observation. And you talk about using questions. I think both questions you ask yourself, but also questions with children in play. So how do you use questions to help make play more active, more rich?
28:28 – Heather Jackson (Guest)
Right, right. So we look at our project work as intentions, but we also look at it as research. We are doing research as research, we are doing research.
28:44
I mean, there is a sort of very traditional sense that we as educators know everything right, that we, you know, we fill up the children and with our knowledge, and that’s our purpose. Well, our purpose is not. I think I want to, you know, change that perspective. Our purpose is to do the research. I’ve been in this field for a very long time and I’m still amazed at the research that my partner and I we can do together and that we can figure out a beautiful play experience based on something that I have never done, she’s never done, and really based on that research. So, from that research, when you look at, think of research, what is it? Questions, right, you’re creating questions and you want to answer those questions. So that’s what we’re doing. We’re creating questions.
29:29
So every August, we all sit down as each classroom and we work out our intentions for the year. So teachers are part of this. It’s not just well, the children need to learn their colors and they need to know their numbers. We do not venture into that realm. We look at what do we want to research this year, and so we get some really interesting work from our staff and our educators, and so one of them, just this morning, I was doing a tour and I looked at their intention. It was how do we create the calm in our infant room? And so that’s a big, big question, right? So how do you do that with 10 children, three staff, all the development that’s happening, three staff, all the development that’s happening. So, when you look at the calm, if we are guiding intention for this year as educators is we want to create that calm. So then how do we do that? Right? So then that’s our research. So we’re looking, we’re reading. How do you create calm as a person, right? So then yoga comes out of there, mindful breath comes out of there, mindful practice comes from there. The list went on and on about how to, and your food, like just all these things. So all those things now are put into this beautiful web to create. Now they get to create project work based on all of those pieces, so each of those sort of ideas.
31:06
So how do we incorporate yoga into our everyday practice? So that’s where the questions come right. So, yoga is the idea, but how do we create yoga into our everyday practice? So now they have to come up with is it something we’re going to do in the morning? Is it something we’re doing before lunch? Is it something we do at sleep time. I know some schools I’ve been reading they’re doing mindful breathing before nap time and I think I’m like I’m always like that is amazing, just because it’s always a little bit stressful, children are, you know, a little bit more hyped up. They, you know, scared to sleep somewhere they don’t know. So some mindful breathing, like that’s amazing that you have your, you know, 18 month old doing mindful breathing and so there’s so many things.
31:56
So each of sort of the ideas comes with a question. So there’s so many things. So each of sort of the ideas comes with a question. And then it’s our job as educators to create the experiences, play, proposals, whatever it is out of there. So usually they come up with that main big question. Then lots of ideas come out of it and then they’re probably creating 12 or 15 questions for the year and so it takes them all year and then all of the children’s intentions and play out of what we’ve been doing come into play also. So you can imagine what that web looks like. It’s just a big, tangly web of ideas and it’s really exciting when I look at those that you know that it’s not just oh, what a ladybug, right, like there is something richer happening here than just a ladybug Poor ladybug, but I love her. But she’s too simplistic. We want something deeper for the educators, for our children and our families. Our families are amazed when they have an 18 month old who can do mindful breathing and can calm themselves with a little self-regulation, right?
33:07 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
and I love that. It models for the children, when, when it starts with the adults asking questions and pursuing and researching that it’s not just how do we get children to ask more questions or how do we get them to answer questions, but we’re modeling just a practice of wonder and research and curiosity and it starts with us and extends to them and I love that.
33:31 – Heather Jackson (Guest)
Yes, yeah, and it’s a different way of thinking that I’m all of a sudden I’m basing my work for this week on this question, right, instead of an actual noun of something like ladybugs or firefighters. But it makes your work important and interesting and you want to. You know you find something. I know whenever I find a new idea, I come in and I’m like guess what I found? And my co-partner, she’s always up for that challenge of what we’re doing, so I love it. Just, it makes our work exciting, and isn’t that? What you want to go to work every day for is to be excited, and I love being with the children, but I think if the work can be exciting, then it’s just a great package to be able to spend your life doing your career.
34:23 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
Yeah, so important. Now you use the term play proposals a few times, so I wondered if you might want to explain that for people who don’t have a regio background. What is a play proposal?
34:33 – Heather Jackson (Guest)
So it is an. So you hear. You hear these words thrown around invitations, provocations, all of that. That’s what it is. It’s a play proposal that you’re giving to children to play, whether it’s loose parts, something to do with the project work that you’re working on. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a product, like we’re not painting on a paper of some sort. It can be just experiencing the materials and building a relationship with materials. And yeah, it’s just. It’s that umbrella of invitations, provocations, play proposals.
35:12 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
I love that. I think, if you’re not familiar with the term, it can sound more like something you have to write down and submit a proposal. So I love that explanation, that it’s just that those invitations and provocations. It’s proposing the play to the child in their own environment.
35:26 – Heather Jackson (Guest)
Right right.
35:28 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
So as we talk about all these different perspectives and the way that we reflect and we bring intentionality and research and wonder it’s a lot of planning right. We plan these play proposals. So I’m curious your perspective on how we bring intentionality and planning to play without taking over or co-opting the play.
35:51 – Heather Jackson (Guest)
Right, and sometimes that’s our teacher agenda. We think that we have to ask children a million questions or we have to make sure they’re learning their colors or their ABCs and their 1, 2, 3s, and so for us as educators, it is again this slow pedagogy of slowing down and really watching and observing the play and figuring out the intentions of what’s happening. And we have journals. All of our staff have journals. If it’s not a journal, it’s a piece of paper and a pen that you’ve grabbed that you’re going to transcribe back in or turning on your phone and recording. I’ve been doing that recently, just recording the play, and then I transcribe it into my journal that I’m going to use for documentation or videotaping the play. Right, and sometimes you can get some beautiful moments and you’ve missed it just because of the action in the classroom. And so for our team, we have planning times every week. We have once a week. We have planning times that they can plan within their team. We also have other times.
37:01
You know, sleep time is a great time to be able to have those kind of conversations. Outdoor time. I know my partner and I, on Fridays we come together and we’re like, okay, what was great about this week, what do we want to continue next week? What do we want to realize next week? What do we want to continue next week, what do we want to realize next week? And just having that kind of brief conversation with our journal, we write it down and we carry on, and that’s really how we do the. We want to do this. And then a week later, it’s like I have a great question, let’s ask this question and I’m thinking we could use these materials and this, and then it comes together as a beautiful play proposal.
37:50 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
And it sounds like it is so much more. You know, you talk about observing and documenting and recording, rather than I go sit down with my piece of of paper and I plan what the play is going to be. It’s more of a relationship of being responsive to where their play is and what their curiosity is, and then how do we support, how do we guide and and bring the element of structure that enables them to enrich that play, rather than here’s, like you said, we don’t start with. Here’s what I’m going to do and that’s what they’re going to do.
38:23
But, it’s responsive to where they are and then bringing your expertise to support them.
38:30 – Heather Jackson (Guest)
Exactly that’s. The exact equation is that we are doing that lots of observation, and not jumping to so quickly to something, and that just to sort of step back and say is this really what I think it is? And having those conversations with your partner and having those conversations with your children also right, asking them sort of really important questions, not already what you know, like what color is that car? No, I want to know how does that, how does those tires move, how do they move? And then you get this great question, because I use a lot of how questions and there’s a whole chapter in our book about questions and it’s about the how question.
39:13
Because how is about constructing, engaging, building? It’s not about a what question is usually a one word answer. A why question is very scientific and there’s an actual reason. And then where, when are all about time and place? Or who is about a person, right? Whereas a how question is really about constructing, right? Like how do leaves change color in the fall? Yes, there is a very scientific one, which is a why. But then why not a magical one? And there’s a few stories in our book about magical, you know, ladybugs landing on trees and turning them red. That was one of our little friends. Years ago. She told that story and so it was like, oh my gosh, like whoa, that is amazing. That’s what you want to hear from your children. Not that you know they’ll learn about. You know why leaves change color in grade three. I don’t even remember from what, why. I just know they’re beautiful when they change and it makes me feel very magical and happy when I walk down my street.
40:20 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
Well, and I think when it comes to asking questions, just like you’re saying, sometimes we forget that it’s the process of reflecting and thinking about and answering that how question? It’s not so much that do they know the right answer to, how it’s getting them to reflect and to think out loud and to do. I love that you honor the magical thinking is so valuable it was. It is no less valuable to talk about the process of a ladybug turning leaves red than than it is to go through these other processes because, especially at this age, it’s that wondering, it’s the thinking out loud, it’s articulating, it’s the process of thinking through those, those wonderings, and it’s okay, it’s in fact fantastic if it’s not the right question and that’s, I think, a great reminder for us to ask those questions that we know they don’t know the answer to. Those are still valuable conversations to have.
41:17 – Heather Jackson (Guest)
Yes, and that it’s those magical answers that you’re never going to get after five. After five, you don’t get those magical wonderful. I always love those answers when they have this great explanation about something and I’m like you are thinking, you are using all the brain cells that you have, and I think it brings so much joy to me as an educator when I hear that and that I can actually record that and then ask them to draw a picture about it. That’s magical, that’s thinking, not that you know, leaves change color because of chloroform and the temperature drops and all of that I I don’t, as a two and three year old, I I’m not interested in that for them.
42:04
I am interested in, yes, a ladybug landed and changed the tree to red, like that’s magical and that’s where you want to go, not the whole scientific stuff that they’ll learn later. They’ll learn later on in life, right so? And unfortunately I think there’s even studies done once after children are at the age of five, they stop the magical thinking they don’t, they, they just don’t participate in and we know as adults we don’t participate in that anymore. But yeah, that’s the unfortunate part. So you have to savor those and you have to cherish them, and they deserve to share those beautiful thinking with you as educators.
42:47 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
Yeah, really honor that magical time.
42:49 – Heather Jackson (Guest)
Yeah, for sure yes.
42:52 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
Well, I so appreciate the perspectives that you’ve shared here and that you’re sharing in the book. Before we close out, you had mentioned a really fun story to share. That kind of ties all of these ideas together.
43:03 – Heather Jackson (Guest)
Yes. So in our program is a half day in the program that I work. I took myself out of the office doing licensing and public health, and all that five, four years ago. And I said, no, this next four years, five years, I want to concentrate on research. I was writing my book at the time and I have other ideas now in place and so I just wanted to do more research. And I also wanted to really because I’ve been in administration for like 20 years and I also wanted to understand what the perspective of the educator like when they tell me I can’t do this or this is too hard, or. I wanted to understand that fully and I wanted to live it. So again, I’m in the classroom half days and then I do my big job in the afternoons, but in the mornings so we have our preschoolers and they’re all three, going to be four in the next year.
44:01
So last year we had a very challenging year. We had five children out of 12 on the spectrum and so it was a lot of sensory, it was a lot of mindset change for us as educators. We managed through and it was like amazing the work that we did, but it was challenging and to do the project work that we traditionally understand. It was very challenging to do that. So in August, when my room partner and I, danica, sat down we said, okay, we want to do something beautiful this year. So I said, okay, let that be our question, our guiding question how can we create something beautiful this year? And I said, okay, let that be our question, our guiding question how can we create something beautiful this year? And so I said, you know, let’s experiment with paint techniques, let’s experiment with different kinds of paints, let’s experiment with collage, printmaking, all of this. And so we both were like, yes, on board, totally Lots of drawing, lots of like just really creative, really to our hearts work. And so we started painting.
45:00
And about the second week in our drawing journals, one of my little friends, she showed me this picture and it was a bright pink sky and a house with a little person in it with a very straight face, and I said, tell me about this picture. So she said to me it’s a rainbow, heather. And then she said it’s a rainbow city, but in this picture there was no rainbow. And I was like, okay, so I recorded that in their book and I closed it and I went to my partner and I said rainbow city, can, what can we do with that? I think’s magical, like it was just like aha, how can we create a rainbow city? So we both sat back and said, no, we’re going to slow down, because the traditional what would we have done? Traditionally we would have been painting rainbows. We would have had, you know, squares of colors. Let’s make a rainbow like. That’s the traditional. But then when we thought about why, what? Why doesn’t this picture have a rainbow? Why is this little friend thinking that she has a rainbow and like what’s happening here?
46:04
So when you do the research, like children, three and four, they typically, if they’re well adjusted, happy, um, you know, just, really, just a well-ad, well adjusted child will draw rainbows in their pictures. And for everybody who has children, you know that they have drawn rainbows in their pictures when they were three, four or five. There’s always a rainbow right, and so rainbows represent happiness to children, represent a feeling of well-being, a sense of belonging, and that sense of belonging is really important in this story. So we go along and we decide we’re going to do Rainbow City. So we decide and all the children are now interested in this. So we have stories about different kinds of rainbows, and some of the stories I’ve never read before and I just ordered them. And this one story was about how does the sky glow? Because it just had beautiful picture, like beautiful painting, on the outside. Well, I get to the end and it’s a city that looks like a rainbow, and so I’m like, okay, the universe is telling me that this is the way we should be going, and so we do lots of stuff on Rainbow City. So we’ve got blocks, we got translucent, we add light to it. It’s beautiful building. The children all of the children are interested. We’re doing beautiful work.
47:27
And so then into October, she draws a rainbow monster. In this collage, everybody’s drawn something different and she’s drawn a rainbow monster, the rainbow monster. In this collage, everybody’s drawn something different. And she’s drawn a rainbow monster. The rainbow monster is this round guy with this rainbow hair and I was like, tell me about this. And she goes Well, he doesn’t live in Rainbow City, we can’t let him live in Rainbow City, he doesn’t live in rain. And she was like very anxious about it. Okay, he doesn’t have to live in Rainbow City. So we left him over this. But the other kids loved the Rainbow Monster thought it was amazing.
47:59
And so then two weeks later she draws a rainbow jail. So it’s like tell me about this. And she said, well, you have to keep Rainbow Jail in Rainbow City. The city needs a jail. So I was like, okay, so I’m now thinking what is going on here, what is happening? And so then we have a discussion with mom and we learn that something very traumatic happened in their family life, and it wasn’t divorce, it was a totally other thing that happened. So now this child is dealing with trauma, and so I’m reading about trauma and children, and that’s my research part, right. So now how do we create Rainbow City as being something that is happiness and safe and creates a sense of belonging? That’s our big question, that is our guiding question, because now everybody’s interested in Rainbow City.
48:58
So Rainbow City carries on, and I feel like this child did get that sense of belonging and sense of happiness from creating these rainbows. She didn’t actually paint a rainbow until November, and so that was that. And then so this is just carried on. So we asked oh, so then we did some fabric work and, uh, we had all these rainbow scarves and so she was like, heather, I’m inside a rainbow and I’m so happy and I was like, yes, this is where this goes right now. The all the other children are now doing it. Heather, take a picture of me while I’m in the rainbow and I thought it was such a beautiful metaphor of what is the play is happening right. So it gives her joy and it makes her feel happy, and this was her happy place to come to school every day.
49:48
But, um, just recently they’ve now been taking a bus to rainbow village or a city and line up the chairs and they bring coffee and they bring muffins, and they have a steering wheel and they sleep in the the bus, and so that’s what they’ve been doing. They’ve been building forts with block, with boxes that we’ve painted all rainbow colors. So there’s been all this beautiful, beautiful. And so our next step is we are looking at storytelling from a Rainbow City perspective, and so we’re hoping that we’ll have all these really beautiful, creative stories to share with parents at our end of year curriculum night, that we will do a reading of all the stories and they’ll be beautifully illustrated and we’ll publish them and it will be an ending that is just a spectacular. So that’s my little rainbow story, but again, we didn’t jump to making rainbows. We have not made rainbows um in this almost all whole year of curriculum planning, which is a slowing down process, right.
50:57 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
And I love the such a beautiful way to honor the magical thinking that, rather than taking oh, she said rainbows and here’s what I think of for rainbows. Like you said, it was slowing down and questioning and saying what does she mean? What do they mean? What are the children interested in? What’s this magical world that is unique only to them that they can build and construct together, and the belonging that comes from that, that we have built this rainbow city together?
51:26 – Heather Jackson (Guest)
What a beautiful magical opportunity.
51:29
And I also think about it, yes, like such a metaphor, like in the whole, in the classroom, because most of these children had not been at a formalized anything, they had not been through childcare from the time they were toddlers. This was their first experience, so now they’re looking for that sense of belonging, right. So that’s where I come to. That’s where we both my partner and I that this Rainbow City is about a sense of belonging and that now they’re working together. So they’re working together every single day building, and so on my Instagram account there’s lots of detail about all the different activities that we’ve done. So I’m at thesunflower underscore studio and that’s where you’ll see that work and you can see that the many, many play proposals that we have introduced to our children and the amazing work that they have done and given us this year. I’m very honored to have been part of it.
52:28 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
It is a fun account to follow. I’ll make sure that I link it in there and I just love the way that you inspire and honor the wonder and the magical thinking. So thank you for sharing that on our podcast episode today, but also putting it into that fantastic book Actions of Play, so that we can bring that into wherever we’re doing our work to remember, to honor that magical thinking and to honor the active role that children need to play in that.
52:56 – Heather Jackson (Guest)
Yes, thank you so much for giving this a voice. I feel like it’s important work and I love my work and I can’t believe, after all these years, I’m still doing this work. So for me, this is magical and yeah, so I, yes, thank you so much, amanda.
53:13 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
That’s beautiful, thank you. Thank you. Thanks again for listening to Not Just Cute, the podcast. You can find show notes at notjustcutecom forward slash podcast forward slash, episode 80. There you’ll find links to Heather’s book as well as other tidbits I know you’ll love. You can also hit up the show notes for a link to the why we Play letters. Head to notjustcutecom forward slash podcast. Forward slash episode 80. Or go straight to notjustcutecom forward slash why we Play to get signed up and download your free sample letter. I’m Amanda Morgan. You can read more on my blog and sign up for the Not Just Cute newsletter at notjustcutecom. You can also stay tuned for social media updates on my Instagram by following me at Amanda underscore not just cute. Thanks for listening today and, as always, thank you for standing up for children and for childhood.
