Rae Pica has been a fierce advocate for children and childhood for over 40 years. And during that time she’s written a whole bookshelf full of books on the topic. Today, she’s sharing her latest addition to that bookshelf, it came out just last week, Why Play?: How to Make Play an Essential Part of Early Education.
In this newest book, Rae dives into the importance of play in early childhood education, how to partner with parents, why different modes of play are beneficial, and how to support each type of play. She even touches on some of the tricky topics associated with play, like rough and tumble play and gun play. It’s her latest, and possibly her greatest, and she’s sharing it with us in today’s episode.
If you want to know how to better advocate for play in early childhood, this episode is for you.
You can now also find Not Just Cute: The Podcast on Spotify and Amazon Music!
Notes from the Show:
(*May contain affiliate links.)
Visit Rae’s site.
Purchase Rae’s book– Why Play?: How to Make Play an Essential Part of Early Education
Check out this classic NJC post on the importance of a strong foundation in written or spoken form.
Any time we talk about academic push-down, I have to share this classic: On DAP… and Why We Don’t Push Kids Down the Stairs.
Rae mentions the work of MikeHuber. Check out his book, Embracing Rough and Tumble Play: Teaching with the Body in Mind.
Academic article focused on rough and tumble play as a social skill builder rather than a violence promoter: The rough-and-tumble play of rats as a natural behavior suitable for studying the social brain (Frontiers in Behavioral Neuroscience, 2022)
Learn more about play expert, Stuart Brown, and his research.
Rae mentions Dr. Nancy Carlsson-Paige (which, I always note, with a little chuckle, is listed in most online profile summaries simply as “Educator | Matt Damon’s Mother”). Rae and Dr. Carlsson-Paige were joined with a few other experts for a conversation about gun play on Rae’s podcast, found here.
Why We Play
Share the importance of play with the Why We Play letters! 1-page prewritten letters for every week of the school year. Add to your own newsletter to help parents, admins, and others in your learning community to understand and value PLAY!
Learn more about Why We Play and sign up for the sample letter at the bottom to ensure you hear about any VIP discounts by clicking here!
Transcript
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Highlights:
(00:00) – The Importance of Play in Education
(14:29) – Rough and Tumble Play Value
(20:21) – Exploring Gunplay in Early Education
(32:39) – The Power of Play in Education
Full Transcript:
00:00 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
Hi, I’m Amanda Morgan, and this is Not Just Cute the podcast where we discuss all kinds of topics to help bridge the gap that exists between what we know and what we do in early childhood education. We’re starting conversations with academics, authors, decision makers, educators and parents so that together we can improve the quality of early childhood education while at the same time protecting and respecting the childhood experience. Ray Pica has been a fierce advocate for children and childhood for over 40 years and during that time she’s written a whole bookshelf maybe even two full of books on the topic. Today, she’s sharing her latest addition to that bookshelf. It just came out last week and it’s called why Play? How to Make Play an Essential Part of Early Education.
01:01
In this newest book, rae dives into the importance of play in early childhood education, how to partner with parents, why different modes of play are beneficial and how to support each type of play. She even touches on some of the tricky topics associated with play, like rough and tumble play and gun play. It’s her latest and quite possibly her greatest, and she’s sharing it with us in today’s episode. You can find this episode’s show notes, which are always full of links, tidbits and resources, at notjustcutecom. Forward slash podcast forward slash, episode 77.
01:40
Before we jump in, a quick reminder that this is the perfect time to share more about the importance of play through the why we Play parent letters. You can check them out and grab a free sample letter by going to notjustcutecom forward slash whyweplay. As I’ve said over and over, people don’t value what they don’t understand, so let’s do our best to help others understand and value play. The why we Play letters were written to help you do just that. Grab your free sample letter today at notjustcutecom forward slash why we play. I always enjoy my conversations with Ray and I’m certain that you’re going to enjoy this too. If you want to know how to better advocate for play in early childhood, this episode is for you. Let’s jump in. Ray Pica, it is always a pleasure to have you on the podcast. Thanks so much for joining us today.
02:41 – Rae Pica (Guest)
Thanks, Amanda. It’s always a pleasure to talk to you.
02:45 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
I should say I’m actually never surprised when I get an email from you saying that you have a new book. You’re so prolific. So tell us a little bit about this new book and why it felt like time for this book now.
02:59 – Rae Pica (Guest)
Well, you know, I was approached by Teachers College Press. I had no intention of writing another one because I just had one come out, but it was Teachers College Press and I hadn’t written for them before and very impressive, you know.
03:15
And they promised marketing help and you know some good stuff that I hadn’t gotten before. So I percolated on it. They wanted me to write about play and I thought, well, you know I’ve got some wonderful books about play right here in my office, and do we need another one? And apparently the answer was yes. I mean, you know, it just boggles the mind. I just can’t believe I have to say these words. But play is going the way of the dinosaur, you know, for young children. So we need to do as much as we can. And when I finally came up with you know the concept that was different from the other books here in my office, I said, okay, I will do it, and I do love to write, amanda.
04:04 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
And you’re very talented at it. It seems to come easily to you. Does it actually come easily to you, or is it just that you’ve built the muscle and so it looks easy to other people?
04:13 – Rae Pica (Guest)
I think building the muscle is a good way to think about it. Yeah, I, this is my 23rd, oh my goodness, and I’m old now, you know. So I’ve been at it for a long time. But, yeah, getting started is always hard for anything. I mean, if I’m creating a webinar or something, it’s, you know that starting and the only solution to that is to start, and it makes the butterflies go away. But, yeah, I mean, it does come much more easily now than it did in the past. And of course, now we have tools that occasionally make me pull my hair out, like the Internet. You know that we didn’t have before.
04:57
I used to, although I loved being in the library, you know, at a table surrounded by big fat, juicy books and with my notebook open and my pen. And you know, I mean I have very nostalgic feelings about that. But I also remember, because I am old, the very first book I had published, when the editor’s changes, suggested changes came back, I had to start typing all over again, because there was no delete, copy and paste and all of that stuff that we have now. I had to type the whole manuscript over again, which is, you know, not very nostalgic about that no, I’m sure not.
05:36
So the name of the book is called why Play, which, unfortunately, is a question that needs to be answered. And what’s the subtitle? Unfortunately is a question that needs to be answered. And what’s the subtitle?
05:47 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
How to Make Play an Essential Part of Early Education. Thank you, I always get in trouble with subtitles. It’s perfect. So why play? How to Make Play an Essential Part of Early Education and we were talking before that. You and I could talk about this for a long time. We’re both very passionate about play and I know a lot of the people who are listening also are passionate about play and have their own answer, but I want to hear your answer again. Like you said, there are other books out there about play, but I think why we need so many is because it takes all these unique voices and perspectives. So what is your personal perspective on why we need play?
06:25 – Rae Pica (Guest)
Because it’s what nature intended, is the simplest, shortest answer I can give you. It’s what nature intended for young children. It’s what nature intended for the species, all the young of all species, including the human species, to learn and to grow, you know, to develop, and physically and socially, emotionally and cognitively. And people just either never knew that or seem to have forgotten it. You know, and the people in charge of policy who are making decisions either never knew it or don’t care to know it.
07:06
They just they are ignoring all of the research and it’s enormously frustrating.
07:13 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
And I do feel like we’ve really. I tell people all the time the research is on our side. We just need to get familiar with it and get better at articulating it and eventually they can’t turn away. Whoever the they is right, the powers that be decision makers, parents, administrators, whoever it is at the moment, if we can get really clear about the research and articulate it, eventually there’s no denying it. So what do you think are some of the misconceptions that are out there that are getting in the way of this understanding?
07:41 – Rae Pica (Guest)
Well, the biggest one you’ve probably heard me talk about before, because I’m always babbling on and on about it is that myth that earlier is better. We’ve been consumed by the belief it’s mostly in this country, but I’m hearing it from other countries as well that we have to get the little ones productive and accountable. I mean, productivity should not be an accomplished, should not be words we use in early childhood. But there’s this belief that if we don’t get them started especially, you know, in academics and also in athletics, as early as humanly possible, that they will fall behind and have unsuccessful, miserable lives. And nothing could be further from the truth. We’re doing the opposite of what they need, we’re making them miserable. And you know we’re not turning out creative children, creative adults. We’re not turning out problem solvers and happy individuals, you know, because they don’t have the chance to play.
08:48 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
And I think that that mentality of earlier is better and, like you said, the efficiency, two thoughts that I keep coming back to. One is that we have to remember that development does not work top down. It’s like building a house starting at the top and going down right. Exactly, we can’t install the door sooner than we’ve put in the foundation, it just doesn’t make sense.
09:09 – Rae Pica (Guest)
That’s funny because I use that, you know. I said we wouldn’t put the second floor or even the first floor on until we have the foundation. It needs to be solid.
09:18 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
And sometimes I feel like if we sometimes I like to turn the tables and use some of that language that feels out of place and I’ve actually said you know, actually playing is efficient. If we want to talk about being more efficient, play is so much more efficient in helping children to work on multiple objectives developmentally at the same time, because it’s more natural that way. It’s more efficient because, like you said, it’s the way that they’re wired to learn. So let’s work with the current right so that it can be more efficient. So sometimes I think we can flip that script and say okay, I hear you saying earlier is better, you’re worried about falling behind. Let me show you why. Play is actually very efficient, very productive. We just need to be able to see it right.
10:05
That we’re looking, we’re measuring with the wrong standards, absolutely.
10:09 – Rae Pica (Guest)
Yeah.
10:10 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
To see that.
10:11 – Rae Pica (Guest)
Yeah, A lot of parents think that worksheets, you know, provide evidence of what their children are learning, what they learn through play. We can’t also see the evidence of right.
10:22 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
It’s hard to put it in a backpack, right.
10:24 – Rae Pica (Guest)
Yes, yes, and you know, creativity, imagination, joy, all those things aren’t measurable, you know they’re not quantifiable. It’s yeah, that’s, that’s just another myth that play is not productive. You know, playtime is not productive time and heaven forbid children should have any downtime. I just, honest to goodness, I just got a text from someone, who will remain nameless, whose daughter’s in first grade and she wanted to know if worksheets were okay for math for first graders. And then she sent me a copy of this, this thing that the teacher sends home that says keep an extra, um, keep an extra set of flashcards in your car so that you can practice. And I’m thinking can we just leave the children alone what they want to do? If you’ve got to subject them to flashcards in the classroom, okay, you know, not that I approve, but just let them play after they get out of school. I mean, why? Why do we have to be quizzing them in the car too?
11:39 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
you know Well, and we have to remind ourselves that if we’re trying to continually push things into all the crevices, I always say if you’re pushing something down, you’re pushing something out. And so you know, if they’re pushing flashcards into the car and at dinnertime and bath time and bedtime, and every other time we have to stop and say, well, we can’t just push it in without considering what we’re pushing out. And what we’re pushing out is conversation, the creative thinking that you were talking about, the relationships that are so important in development, and so we’ve really got to get people aware, I guess, to recognize that it’s. You can’t just keep pushing in or pushing down without pushing something out, and some of those things that we’re pushing out are so essential.
12:25 – Rae Pica (Guest)
Absolutely essential. Critical, you know. I mean, we just think about problem solving alone. They say that we don’t even know many of the careers today’s four-year-olds will have. Right, absolutely. So we talk about preparing them for adulthood and making them, you know, college and career ready. Well, we don’t know much of what they’re going to need to know, but the one thing we can say for certain is they will need problem solving skills and they learn those through play. You know. They don’t learn them by memorizing what’s on a worksheet.
13:01 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
Yeah, it’s, it’s um, going in that same, that same lane. You mentioned creativity before and I harp on this all the time that creativity is so important and it is so well supported by play. But I think sometimes what people hear is creativity is important because we need artists, and we do, and that’s great. But what I remind them is is that every successful person has done something differently than it’s ever been done before.
13:30
Right so our very best doctors, our very best teachers, our very best politicians, our very best scientists I mean, fill in whatever profession is because they saw something differently or they encountered a problem that had never been known before or was thought to have no answer. They looked at it differently and they did something differently. They were good problem solvers and they were creative thinkers, just like you said, and those are key to play and pretty much lost on worksheets, right?
14:01 – Rae Pica (Guest)
Oh, completely lost on worksheets. Yeah, worksheets right. Oh, completely lost on worksheets. Yeah, I used to, in my workshops a long time ago, ask participants to write down words that you know came to mind when I said play and I don’t know which order I did it in and write down words that come to mind when I say creativity and there was so much overlap you know, between the two, and creativity and problem solving do go hand in hand, you know.
14:29
I mean, you know, like you say, we do tend to associate creativity with the art artists alone, but we need creativity in science, in business, in technology, in medicine, you know. And problem solving, I mean as long as there are humans on Earth, there will always be problems to solve right Absolutely, to solve right Absolutely. So yeah, if children only know how to follow directions and do as they’re told, this is not a skill that just suddenly appears because you know they’ve matured physically. You have to start instilling these things in them when they’re young. To me, that’s what being ready for school looks like. Is, you know, letting them grow and develop as nature intended? Yeah Well, we could rant and rave all day long.
15:24
I’m not sure it makes enough difference, but we try.
15:28 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
We try. Well, one of the things I loved is I looked over the summary of your book and some of its contents is that you you jump into some of these tricky topics around play as well, and and so I want to jump into some of those, and one that I heard just recently. I was teaching a workshop workshop and we had a similar conversation. They had the question what about rough and tumble play? What should I do about rough and tumble play in an early childhood classroom? You know, shouldn’t I just stop? It is kind of the feeling they have, and if not, why would we allow this rough and tumble type of play?
16:02 – Rae Pica (Guest)
Yeah, each of each chapter. There are 12 chapters in the book and each one is dedicated to a different type of play and my idea was to advocate for each of these 12 types of play, was to advocate for each of these 12 types of play, give the teachers the information that they need. And then there’s a section and I know we’ll talk about parents later, but there’s a section in each chapter called partnering with parents, so that we can help advocate with the parents too. So, anyway, I’m getting ahead of myself.
16:35
Rough and tumble is one of two types, well, three types of play that are, I think, to be avoided at all costs because we imagine the children getting hurt and we’ve gone a little overboard with our protectiveness of children. I use the example of a little boy called Clark that I live next door to. He was six or seven when I moved in and you know, broken bones, bloody body parts, I mean the whole thing, and it was just a rite of passage. Today, I mean, you know, it just wouldn’t even be allowed. We can’t allow them to hurt themselves.
17:20
Anyway, rough and tumble is something again seen in most species, you know, and the young of most species. It just comes naturally to them. We do tend to think of it more in terms of boys, but girls also. Mike Huber, in his book which I can’t remember the name of it, talked about you know, the girls often being the ones who say let’s bring out the tumbling mats. You know, and want to get in there. For boys it’s one of the only societally is that a word sanctioned? Um, ways that they can experience touch. Touch is so important for young children, and boys don’t get enough of it. Um, when they engage in rough and tumble play, you know, they learn about boundaries you, you know they learn.
18:15
How hard can I touch without it hurting. You know where is the line between fun and something that’s hurtful or harmful and it’s relatively easy to see for a teacher. You know if the children are laughing and smiling we’re good. If someone is complaining or crying or looks like he or she is in pain, then you know we need to intervene, but otherwise we shouldn’t worry.
18:52 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
And that’s one of the skills that children get from that rough and tumble play. That’s one of the things we talked about was that when we teach children to pay attention to their friends, look at your friend’s face. Is he enjoying this right now? That’s a huge social skill for them to learn and, just like you said, that boundary of how much is too much and how far can I push this that balancing act that they have to live in in their lives right, that social awareness that they need to pick up is it’s just an amazing way for them to learn it.
19:23
And one of the pieces of research I found really interesting, when you mentioned animals, that they do a lot of rough and tumble play, and I remember reading some research saying that initially, scientists thought that this rough and tumble play was preparing them as predators.
19:36
Right, it was part of training them. It was rough and tumble play so that they would learn how to go get their prey type of thing. And then they realized that it really wasn’t about getting food, that even animals that didn’t need to, that were fed and cared for and didn’t need to get their prey, that it actually was related to their social standing and their social skills, because it goes back to what you said, that they had learned how to interact appropriately, how to read the room, basically, and how to interact in those ways that helped them to be socially successful, more so than it was related to any kind of hunting skills or the actual that this rough and tumble play wasn’t training them for violence, like we tend to think as humans right that it was actually training them to be socially successful and socially aware.
20:21 – Rae Pica (Guest)
Yeah, I’m having different images pop into my mind as I’m listening to you. I mean, one is of pandas, baby pandas. I mean they’re always tumbling over one another.
20:31 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
I was going to say they put the tumble in rough and tumble, don’t they?
20:35 – Rae Pica (Guest)
Yes, they do, and we would never imagine, you know, separating them and telling them, no, you can’t do that, we wouldn’t do that. You know to a pile of puppies or kittens. I mean, that’s what they do, it’s just instinctive, and it’s instinctive in the children too. And then, when you talked about reading faces, I think about Sheldon Cooper from the Big Bang Theory. You know, who could not tell what someone was feeling, you know? I mean, yeah, he’s a character on TV, but there are people like that who don’t know what someone is feeling by the expression on their face. So rough and tumble play is definitely something that prepares them for that.
21:14 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
Absolutely, and that social awareness, I think is just becoming more and more important as we become a little disconnected in society. Just the opportunity to actually see and read a person’s face. We talked earlier that, even this interview. I don’t use video in the interviews, but I use it as we talk because it’s that social referencing. We want to be able to see each other and I think it’s easy for us to underestimate how important that is for children, that it’s actually a practice and learned skill to learn how to physically interact, to visually interact and be in each other’s space.
21:50 – Rae Pica (Guest)
You know when we think about early childhood education and care, it’s. You know all the emphasis is on the science of emotional development. You know where we learn to become part of something. You know become part of a community, and that to me. You know developing empathy, which you know if you’ve tumbled a little too hard and you hurt your best friend. You know the development of empathy, sensitivity, perspective taking all of those are going to serve you so much better in the future as a successful adult in society than you know flashcards.
22:51 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
And so many of those academic skills. I always make it clear I’m not saying they don’t matter, but they need to be in their right place that that foundation needs to be full of those social skills. And there are some pieces of, you know, the foundational pieces of literacy that are appropriate in there. But pushing them down doesn’t get them any further ahead because of what it’s pushing out.
23:12
And so those academic skills are important and they have their place and they will be developed, but they’ll be learned so much better when it’s on the foundation of these early skills that are built through play.
23:22 – Rae Pica (Guest)
Yes, but also, you know, as part of the advocacy I do in each of these chapters, is to point out the different academic skills that are being acquired naturally. The different academic skills that are being acquired naturally, you know, oh, this is emergent literacy and this is math, and this is a scientific concept and we don’t tend, we’re not looking at it through the right lens you know, Although I mean I have to say I’ve been doing. I’ve been promoting movement for 44 years now, 44 years. I’ve been promoting movement for decades now.
23:56
Yeah 44 years and I, you know, over those four decades I have resented having to justify movement and play and music, you know, and all the things that that serve children so well by saying they promote these academic skills. But it’s at the point where you know I’ll say anything.
24:17 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
Well, it’s back to speaking the same language. Because it is true I mean, dramatic play is building pre-literacy skills over and over right In a million different ways. And it’s no less true because it’s play Right, but sometimes that’s the perspective that is going to be most helpful to point out for someone. Yeah, right, but sometimes that’s the um, the perspective that is going to be most helpful to point out for someone.
24:38 – Rae Pica (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, the most needed, at least. I think, in these weird ages that we’re living in. Um yeah, uh it it, yeah Anyway.
24:48 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
Well, there there was another tricky topic that I really was anxious to hear your perspective on, and that is gunplay. You actually broached the subject of what about gunplay, and so I’m so curious to hear what your suggestions are about how we look at that differently and how we handle it differently in our classrooms, because that is such a charged, difficult topic.
25:09 – Rae Pica (Guest)
Oh, of course it is. I mean especially, you know, look, just last week or the week before we had another school shooting. It’s a very, very sensitive topic. The fear is, and it’s understandable. The fear is that if we let the children engage in gunplay, they will come to see it as gunplay is something that’s okay, that is acceptable, that they will become violent.
26:07
But there is no evidence, no research whatsoever, to show that children who engage in gun and war play and superhero play you know he did, he went into prisons and interviewed inmates and discovered that the most violent among them never played as as children and I I think in particular they never had rough and tumble play. But you know, um nancy carlson, page diane levin, a lot of people, gerard jones, um jane katz, I mean, they have all written wonderful, wonderful books on gunplay, superhero play, war play, and it’s just not anything to worry about. And, like rough and tumble play, it’s found all over the world, in all cultures. You know, world, in all cultures. You know I often like to say that you know this is what children were intended to do. Nature intended them to learn and grow in all these different ways through different kinds of play, and we cannot possibly imagine we have a better plan than nature. You know, if we just give nature credit, you know we’ll be okay.
27:08 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
When I often think back. I have four boys who are teenagers now, but I remember thinking you know, even if I took every single toy gun away, there’s still this finger. Or they put together the blocks or they find the stick. And even if they don’t tell you something’s a gun, if they get the idea that a gun is restricted and banned and it’ll be taken away, they won’t tell you anything’s a gun. But they, you know, my peanut butter and jelly sandwich is a gun.
27:34
I’m just not going to tell anybody right that, that you can’t stop the play. So what do you suggest? What are the boundaries and the guidelines that we should use in the classroom to be able to? Because, like I said, even if you think you’re stopping it, you’re probably not stopping it Right. That’s not the objective. So if the objective isn’t to stop it, what do you suggest teachers do to guide it appropriately?
27:56 – Rae Pica (Guest)
I do understand not you know refusing to have toy guns in the classroom or in the home.
28:02
I get that, but, as you said, you know they’re going to make them out of carrots and sticks and peanut butter sandwiches, and I think it was Diane Levin who pointed out that when we take them away and they’re going to create them anyway, what we’re teaching them is to be sneaky, and we certainly aren’t looking to do that, are we? Yeah, as soon as we tell them something is forbidden, oh, wow, you know how that goes. I think that it’s the same sort of thing If the children are having fun, if they’re smiling, if they’re laughing, if they’re, you know, although you know, when you’re running around playing cops and robbers, it’s a very serious thing. I remember doing that as a child and I think that we just, you know, we just need to go with the flow of it. I know that’s easier said than done, but we, we, I’m hoping that, knowing there’s no research that shows it turns children into, you know, little villains, is going to be enough to calm people when it comes to that.
29:13 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
And I think, like a lot of those challenging types of play, it really comes back to the conversations that we’re willing to have and to talk through. You know, if it is going beyond something that becomes more intense, talking again about how, how are people feeling and and why do we feel this way? And what is it reflecting? Maybe if you know whether they’re just reflecting the cops and robbers trope right, or if they’re reflecting something really scary that they need to process and play with and talk about, to just say that’s not okay Isn’t going to help them process this big heavy thing. And while that does take a lot of time and effort, I always go back to the line of thinking that essentially, either way, we’re helping them to grow and develop and that’s going to take time.
30:02
I think it was oh, I’m trying to remember. Just recently I was talking with somebody and they said their favorite saying was you can either keep putting the cows back in the pasture or you can actually fix the fence. Either way it takes time. You just get to decide where you put the time right. Oh good analogy.
30:18
And so we can have that conversation, those hard conversations, to talk about what feels safe, what doesn’t feel safe and maybe why they’re playing that way, which doesn’t mean that it’s bad and we’re stopping it, but that we’re processing it is more important.
30:32 – Rae Pica (Guest)
Stopping it isn’t very productive, but processing it it’s going to be productive and setting up protocols ahead of time. We won’t hit anyone with our guns sticks, whatever. You know, all the early childhood professionals listening in today know how important it is to set up those boundaries and guidelines and have those conversations in advance. You know, you mentioned that this is play is how children express their feelings, that’s how they process their feelings and I once heard Nancy Carlson Page say that if they don’t have the chance to process those feelings, where do those feelings go? You know, I mean, during and after the pandemic, children were playing doctor and patient and hospital, you know, and all of these things.
31:27
And by acting that out, they were taking control of something of which they had no control. You know they were becoming powerful by taking on those roles and that power was something they needed to feel. And there is. You know, the TVs are on in the background, the adults are talking, they get whispers or whatever it might be about these school shootings and they need to process it somehow. I mean, just Nancy Carlson Page said it best, if we don’t allow them to process their feelings through play, then where do those feelings go? And I don’t want to think about, you know, what happens when we, when we suppress our feelings, they’re going to come out in some unhealthy way at some point.
32:24 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
So yeah, and and back to your point, that doesn’t mean that we’re providing. I want to be really clear. It doesn’t mean we’re providing toy guns in our dramatic play area but it’s saying that if they create it in some way we don’t immediately, you know, explode on it and shut it down, right, I think.
32:39
I think there’s a parallel when, when 9-11 happened, I was teaching in the lab preschool at the university where I was doing my master’s degree, and as I’m sure it happened in many other preschools, we would see children building up towers and knocking them down and knocking them down.
32:54 – Rae Pica (Guest)
Building up towers and knocking them down. I wrote about that in the book Right.
32:57 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
It’s just, yeah, what they had to do, right, and we would not stop and get in the way of that and say we’re not going to talk about it.
33:08 – Rae Pica (Guest)
We don’t want to see it Right, even though it could be very upsetting and it was.
33:09 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
It was hard to see, but it was recognizing that, even though they didn’t understand just like you said, they didn’t understand the full context they knew enough to know there was something that wasn’t right and that they needed to play with that idea to figure, figure it out. Yeah, and I just think there’s a parallel there. There’s so many other ways that we let children play with challenging topics and events and we recognize that we need to help process and work through it. And maybe we just need to take a step back and recognize are there other types of things that we’re shutting down without processing?
33:43 – Rae Pica (Guest)
that’s doing a disservice. Yeah, I mean how frightening these things have to be to the little ones. You know, even without fully understanding the context, as you said it’s you know and how little control they have in their lives. And play allows them some control. It allows them to feel powerful, and they need that. I mean helplessness. That’s not a good feeling, right right, it’s not what we want them to experience.
34:13 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
And that play is the developmentally appropriate context for them to practice that type of power and control Exactly. That’s where they’re going to get it. Well, you alluded to this earlier, but the last topic I wanted to talk about was how we have these conversations with parents, how we get them on board, and that’s something that I do a lot of work with and we’ve talked a lot about before. But what are some things that you recommend that educators do to help get parents on board with play?
34:42 – Rae Pica (Guest)
Parents are powerful people. Pardon the alliteration. Parents are powerful people. Pardon the alliteration because they they’re receiving so much misinformation and that earlier is better is a big part of that misinformation. But because I mean, who is easier to scare than a parent? Because they became so worried, they started advocating and requesting academics-oriented programs as opposed to play-based programs, and a lot of play-based programs disappeared as a result of that. If they have the power to take things that way, they have the same power to take them the other way, to bring play back to early childhood.
35:27
So, as I mentioned, in each chapter there is a section and this was my wonderful editor her idea called partnering with parents, and I mean mostly I’m suggesting that they take the research that I gave them in the chapter. And they’re all you know, they’re all little chapters, they’re all easy reads. Don’t want to overwhelm parents. We don’t want to use jargon. You know educational jargon. We want to make it, and I’m not saying we need to talk down to them, no, we just want to simplify it as much as we can because they’re busy people.
36:04 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
I was going to say for their time, as much as anything else.
36:06 – Rae Pica (Guest)
Yes, absolutely. I mean we can share articles. I mean there are all these apps these days right For sharing information with parents. We can attach an article or we can do a little bit of work and synthesize it with bullet points. You know, we can put an article in their child’s cubby with a note that says I thought you’d love to read this article. It’s this great article on play I just came across Again.
36:34
We don’t want to bombard them with research articles we can use they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. We can use photos and videos. I believe it was Mike Huber, talking about rough and tumble play, who said that he sent home videos of the children engaging in it and when the parents saw that it was okay. But mostly when they saw how much joy the children were experiencing, the issue just went away. So, yeah, we show them. You know, we can point out those concepts. We can, you know, include a video or a photo and say you know, here your child is learning about, is learning word comprehension, or you know whatever it might be, the mathematics concepts or quantitative concepts, you know whatever it is. I’m starting to babble now. But we can help them to see what children are learning through play and there are a lot of different possibilities, but the conversation has to be there.
37:46
There has to be that conversation with the parents. It has to be a partnership with them.
37:51 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
And when we recognize that what parents really want is whatever is best for their children then, when we help them to understand all these benefits that you mentioned, when we can articulate to them very confidently but not in a pompous right, not pompous and not you know, we’re not in a conflict, we’re not fighting about it, we’re just passionate about it, we’re just very confident about it. We’re excited about what we’re seeing their children do and we can share it in that enthusiastic way that welcomes them into that partnership that you described, they will start to be the biggest advocates, right along with you, because they want what’s best for their children.
38:31 – Rae Pica (Guest)
And so when you help them see that they’re on your team, yes, and you use the word enthusiasm, and that is the way you know that we, we share what we want to share with them. You know, with enthusiasm, as opposed to coming across like with a know-it them. You know, with enthusiasm, as opposed to coming across like we’re the know-it-alls. You know, we know your children better than you do and we, you know, we understand child development better than you do. No, we just have to be excited about what we’re sharing and passionate about it. And also, you know, if you love their child, they’re going to love you, right, because who wouldn’t love someone who loves their child? So yeah, absolutely. I mean, it’s all about all of us wanting the best for them, so, yeah, Absolutely.
39:17 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
When we can get a lot of us, all of us together, good people with a good message, good things happen Right, yes, and you know there’s a whole lot of research now about how important joy is to learning.
39:29 – Rae Pica (Guest)
Yes. A neuroscientist and educator Judy Willis has written about this a lot, and she says when the fun stops, so too does the learning. And that is never more true than an early childhood, because fun is what motivates them.
39:43 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
Yes, she is one of my favorite quotes. I think it finds its way into almost every presentation that I do. She has a quote that talks about how joy and enthusiasm are absolutely essential for learning to happen. And then, I love, she uses these qualifiers literally, scientifically as a matter of fact and research. And I love those qualifiers.
40:04 – Rae Pica (Guest)
I think that’s in the book too.
40:05 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
It’s one of my very favorites, because it’s not, we don’t do it just because well, I always say, it’s not because it’s cute, right, because that’s what I talk about. It’s not because it’s cute, it’s not because you’re nice or because you know you just want to do this fluffy fun stuff. It’s because, literally, scientifically, as a matter of fact and research, it’s where the best learning happens.
40:28 – Rae Pica (Guest)
Absolutely.
40:29 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
Absolutely Well, ray, thank you so much for your decades of advocacy and for sharing all of your knowledge and your experience and for taking time to talk with us today. You’re just such an amazingly prolific treasurer, so thank you.
40:45 – Rae Pica (Guest)
Thank you, I’m tired.
40:48 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
You’ve earned it.
40:49 – Rae Pica (Guest)
Thanks, Amanda. I always have so much fun talking with you.
40:54 – Amanda Morgan (Host)
It is always a pleasure. Thanks again for listening to Not Just Cute the podcast. You can find show notes at notjustcutecom forward slash podcast forward slash episode 77. There you’ll find links to Ray’s book as well as other tidbits that I know that you’ll love. You can also hit up the show notes for a link to the why we play letters. Head to notjustcutecom forward slash podcast. Forward slash, episode 77. Or go straight to notjustcutecom forward slash why we play to get signed up and download your free sample letter. I’m Amanda Morgan. You can read more on my blog and sign up for the Not Just Cute newsletter at notjustcutecom. You can also stay tuned for social media updates on Instagram by following me at Amanda underscore not just cute. Thanks for listening today and, as always, thank you for standing up for children and for childhood.